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I have closed the forums to new postings because there was not enough discussion, I answered nearly all the questions, and I no longer work on Kino. Please use the forums provided by your Linux distribution. Meanwhile, I will leave this open in read-only mode to serve as a knowledge base.


Subject: "Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)" Previous topic | Next topic
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Top Linux Digital Video Kino Topic #3590
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lixusWed Sep-30-09 01:18 PM
Member since Sep 30th 2009
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#3590, "Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"


          

Hello,

I have got a Panasonic SDR SW20 Video Camara that
records mpeg files called MOV001.MOD to a SDHC Flash Card.
I use PAL and I believe it interlaced lines.

I import that MOV001.MOD file into kino and I
am able to cut/edit it. My understanding is that
kino first converts that video file to the "DV Format"
i am not sure if the material get's deinterlaced at this step.

Then I am export the project using
Export -> Other -> Tool: DVD-Dideo Dual Pass (FFMPEG) -> Profile DVD-Video directory (All only)

The resulting DVD looks nice when played on my laptop using mplayer.

But once I burnd the DVD directory structure to disk and play it
with an ordinary DVD player conected to my PAL TV,
high motion scenes are flickering a lot.
It's almost impossible to watch this video.

I suspect this is because kino exports the DVD in a progressive way
instead of using interlacing like it would better suit my PAL TV,
is that correct ?

How can I make kino to generate DVDs that look smooth on a PAL TV ?


Thanks in advance
Lixus

  

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Replies to this topic:
RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), lixus, Sep-30-09 08:25 PM, #1
RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), ddennedy, Oct-01-09 03:09 AM, #2
      RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), lixus, Oct-01-09 12:23 PM, #3
           RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), lixus, Oct-01-09 05:27 PM, #4
                RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), lixus, Oct-02-09 10:10 AM, #5
                     RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?), ddennedy, Oct-05-09 04:58 PM, #6

lixusWed Sep-30-09 08:25 PM
Member since Sep 30th 2009
5 posts
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#3591, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #0


          

I think was wrong about the progressive/interlace stuff I mentioned
in the first post. I am now sure that the material is still interlaced
since I can clearly see "comb/stripe distortion" in mplayer when paused.

I uploaded the DVD directory structure created by kino (about 22MB)
so you can check on your on:

http://files.muellers.ms/kino.zip and the input file
http://files.muellers.ms/test.dv

Again, this looks nice on my laptop but on
TV it is flickering very much.

I now belive that probably the two field of each frame
are in the wrong order and the second one comes first.

So 1B 1A 2B 2A 3B 3A ... instead of 1A 1B 2A 2B 3A 3B ....

But thats just guessing but this would at least explain why the DVD looks so shaky on TV.


Please, your help is much appreciated!




PS: I am totaly confused about interlacing/progressive
and PAL and all the stuff. All what I wanted to make some
video clips and upload them to the web and burn them on DVD
/me sighs: it's all so complicated

  

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ddennedyThu Oct-01-09 03:09 AM
Member since Jun 26th 2006
1362 posts
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#3592, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #0


          

Try too figure out if your MOD file is top-field-first or bottom-field-first. DV is bottom-field-first, and then it gets signaled that way in the encoded MPEG-2 for DVD. However, I do not believe the import routine does any field swapping and just ignores any field order information from the input.

+-DRD-+
Lead Kino Developer

  

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lixusThu Oct-01-09 12:23 PM
Member since Sep 30th 2009
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#3593, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #2


          

Unfortunately I do not know how to figure out if
the MOV001.MOD file is BFF of TFF , the manual of the Panasonic
Cam does not mention that.

I uploaded such a file http://files.muellers.ms/MOV001.MOD (11MB)

/# mplayer -nocache -identify -vo null -ao null -frames 0 MOV001.MOD
Playing MOV001.MOD.
ID_VIDEO_ID=0
ID_AUDIO_ID=0
MPEG-PS file format detected.
VIDEO: MPEG2 704x576 (aspect 2) 25.000 fps 9510.0 kbps (1188.8 kbyte/s)
ID_FILENAME=MOV001.MOD
ID_DEMUXER=mpegps
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=0x10000002
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=9510000
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=704
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=576
ID_VIDEO_FPS=25.000
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=0.0000
ID_AUDIO_FORMAT=80
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=0
ID_AUDIO_RATE=0
ID_AUDIO_NCH=0
ID_LENGTH=8.42
==========================================================================
Opening video decoder: MPEG 1/2 Video passthrough
VDec: vo config request - 704 x 576 (preferred colorspace: Mpeg PES)
VDec: using Mpeg PES as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is undefined - no prescaling applied.
VO: 704x576 => 704x576 Mpeg PES
Selected video codec: vfm: mpegpes (MPEG-PES output (.mpg or DXR3/IVTV/DVB/V4L2 card))
==========================================================================
ID_VIDEO_CODEC=mpegpes
==========================================================================
Opening audio decoder: MPEG layer-2, layer-3
AUDIO: 48000 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 256.0 kbit/16.67% (ratio: 32000->192000)
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=256000
ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
ID_AUDIO_NCH=2
Selected audio codec: afm: mp3lib (mp3lib MPEG layer-2, layer-3)
==========================================================================
AO: 48000Hz 2ch s16le (2 bytes per sample)
ID_AUDIO_CODEC=mp3

I did some test with avidemux, I first exported the
movie as MPEG in kino and imported it in avidemux where
I chose Auto->DVD,Video->Configure->Interlacing:Interlaced TFF
and the resulting DVD/Image does not flicker/shake.

So I am quite sure that this is an issue with
Kino with TFF and BFF but of course I do not want
to have to use kino AND avidemux I would prefere to only
use kino.



1) How can I find out if the MOD file is TFF or BFF ?

2) Is there a way to make kino to import/export the TFF/BFF correctly?

  

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lixusThu Oct-01-09 05:27 PM
Member since Sep 30th 2009
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#3594, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #3


          


http://files.muellers.ms/MOV001.MOD

# mediainfo MOV001.MOD
General
Complete name : MOV001.MOD
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 10.2 MiB
Duration : 9s 96ms
Overall bit rate : 9 401 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 9s 0ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 8 771 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 510 Kbps
Width : 704 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.865
Stream size : 9.41 MiB (92%)

Audio
ID : 192 (0xC0)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 9s 96ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -80ms
Stream size : 284 KiB (3%)


Okay, now found the tool "mediainfo" to get more info about the input file as you can see above. I am happy that I now identified the problem at least as a TFF BFF issue.

The scan order of the input file is "Top Field First".

You mentioned that DV is usually "Bottom Field First".
Kino should probably convert from TFF to BFF
while converting the input file to DV Format if input it TFF.

Or the otherway round, kino should create a "Top Field First"
export if input was also TFF, what do you think?

Import is done by this script:

"/usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh MOV001.MOD MOV001.MOD.dv pal 4:3 48000" which runs this command "ffmpeg-kino -top -1 -threads 2 -i MOV001.MOD -s 720x576 -r pal -aspect 4:3 -ac 2 -ar 48000 -pix_fmt yuv420p -y MOV001.MOD.dv"

ffmpeg-kino manpage mentions this option which could be a solution:

-top n
top=1/bottom=0/auto=-1 field first

How can I procced ?
Convert from TFF to BFF while importing into kino ?
Or convert from BFF to TFF while exporting the DVD in kino ?

Thanks in advance

  

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lixusFri Oct-02-09 10:10 AM
Member since Sep 30th 2009
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#3595, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #4


          

To continue my monologue:

I did some test by adding all combinations of "-top
1" and "-top -1" to the ffmpeg
/usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh but that did not
change anything.

Furthermore I noticed that if I first rename MOV001.MOD to
MOV001.MPG
mencoder will be used instead of ffmpeg to import the file,
strange.

But I found a workaround about the shaky playback on TV:
If I use this:

Kino -> Export-> MPEG ->

File Format: 8- DVD
Deinterlace: Already Deinterlaced

The resulting DVD.mpeg is then also TFF (according to
mediainfo)

INPUT
# mediainfo MOV001.MOD | grep "Scan order"
Scan order                       : Top Field First

DVD OUTPUT
# mediainfo DVD.mpeg | grep "Scan order"
Scan order                       : Top Field First

It works fine and does not shake/flicker on TV
of course "Already Deinterlaced" makes no sence but
at least it works.

CU
Lixus

  

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ddennedyMon Oct-05-09 04:58 PM
Member since Jun 26th 2006
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#3596, "RE: Motion scenes are flickering on TV using Kino's DVD export (progressive/interlace problem ?)"
In response to Reply #5


          

>To continue my monologue:
>
>I did some test by adding all combinations of "-top
1" and
>"-top -1" to the ffmpeg
>/usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh but that did not
>change anything.

FFmpeg will not actually touch the picture to compensate for
field order differences. It just uses this for setting a
signal in the output. However, DV is always bottom field
first. So, it is meaningless.

>Furthermore I noticed that if I first rename MOV001.MOD
to
>MOV001.MPG
>mencoder will be used instead of ffmpeg to import the
file,
>strange.

Not strange. If you read the import/media.sh script you see
that MOD files are blacklisted from mencoder because some
users reported problems with some versions of mencoder.

>But I found a workaround about the shaky playback on TV:
>If I use this:
>
>Kino -> Export-> MPEG ->
>
>File Format: 8- DVD
>Deinterlace: Already Deinterlaced
>
>The resulting DVD.mpeg is then also TFF (according to
>mediainfo)
>
>INPUT
># mediainfo MOV001.MOD | grep "Scan order"
>Scan order                       : Top Field First
>
>DVD OUTPUT
># mediainfo DVD.mpeg | grep "Scan order"
>Scan order                       : Top Field First

Strange because that makes it tell mjpegtools that it is a
progressive-scan signal.

> It works fine and does not shake/flicker on TV
>of course "Already Deinterlaced" makes no sence
but at least
>it works.

+-DRD-+
Lead Kino Developer

  

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